Why would I want to do that?
November 10th, 2008 Posted in Bosses, GeneralBiggie says in a coment below:
I would assume that any raiding guild worth their salt is giving their MTs first crack at tanking plate gear drops
Why would we want to do that? I’m not a big fan of the “Tank priority” scheme. It’s all about the team as a whole, not any individual. Why should they lose out on a reward because the tank thinks it might be better for them? This particularly applies to Tier tokens, though if something is a serious upgrade for someone else, they should have it. The paladin offtanking today might well be main tanking tomorrow because the usual Main Tank is unavailable.
Tank priority makes a mockery of any sort of effort-based loot system, be it eqDKP, EPGP, or anything else. It’s stating that the tank is the most important person in the raid. This isn’t true. There are ten (or twenty-five) most important people in the raid, and all of them have a job to do.
A case in point - I’ve seen the warrior Tier 6 helm drop multiple times. I’ve never got hold of one, though, because my PR has been too low. Does it really matter? Not really. My [item]Tankatronic Goggles[/item], pretty much the very first epic I got, are still serving me well, and have done in every single raid encounter I’ve seen. (On the other hand, I did walk away with T6 legs and shoulders and a [item]Bulwark of Azzinoth[/item] in one night, so it’s not like I’m not seeing serious gear improvement).
What happens when your tank who’s got all the best gear suddenly gets run over by a bus, or (shock, horror!) quits the game? Suddenly all the investment made in him is wasted. If a tank is really good, then he’ll be picked for most raids and be near the top of the list for loot anyway. There’s no need to push the balance in his favour that little bit more, or when you reach the next Brutallus, you’ll find your tank surviving happily while your dps are completely unable to beat the beserk timer.
9 Responses to “Why would I want to do that?”
By Biggie on Nov 11, 2008
“..giving their MTs first crack at *tanking* plate gear drops.”
My statement says nothing about the importance of other players in a raid… it was specific to the loot distribution of TANK SPECIFIC ITEMS among TANKING CLASSES in a raiding guild. It’s not like your tanks would be rolling on cloth/mail armor or a weapon that somehow deprives your DPS or healing classes a shot at gear that helps them do their job. Lets be clear, it’s obvious your beef is with the gear priority for raid MT’s versus OT’s - this has nothing to do with loot distribution that would directly impact your DPS player’s gear.
Seriously, when is the last time some DPS class would benefit from a plate chest with a chunk of DEF/Dodge and STA?
Tanks are, as you said, part of the overall team that makes up a raid. HOWEVER - the ability of a tank to perform their job is directly impacted by the quality of their gear. Tank effectiveness has a direct, mathematical effect on the top end damage a raid can do and how long your healers can last before going OOM. Why would it make ANY sense to pass over your MT on a gear upgrade that will ultimately help the entire raid progress more quickly and gear everyone sooner?
I think it’s perfectly fair to preferentially distribute loot first to the people who’s gear level directly impacts the ability of a guild to progress - including main tanks. What’s “fair” to an OT individually, in this case, is NOT in the best interest of a guild that is progressing through new content.
I guess it comes down to your guild’s priority - fast progression that helps everyone get more gear faster or spreading loot out “fairly” among the tanking cadre even if it hurts the guild as a whole in terms of progression. There are ups and downs to both… risk management can cut both ways, regularly passing MT gear upgrades to an OT who has been showing up forever collecting DKP but doesn’t have the chops to MT is just as likely to send the MT looking for greener pastures. Given the choice I’d rather see an OT leave than a MT who’s been helping a guild progress.
By Namthe on Nov 11, 2008
“Why would it make ANY sense to pass over your MT on a gear upgrade that will ultimately help the entire raid progress more quickly and gear everyone sooner?”
It wouldn’t. However I don’t subscribe to the theory that just gearing one tank is going to be beneficial to the raid - no matter how well geared your tanks, they are going to struggle if everyone else isn’t nearly as well geared. So you take slightly harder hits - that’s mitigated as much by the fact that the boss will be hitting you for less time as anything.
In The Hidden Circle, we don’t have such a thing as “an OT who has been showing up forever collecting DKP but doesn’t have the chops to MT”. If the OT is good enough to tank, then he’ll be given the opportunity to do so. If he isn’t, then he gets cut, quickly. It helps defeat burnout and boredom if more than one person knows what to do in any number of situations.
“Seriously, when is the last time some DPS class would benefit from a plate chest with a chunk of DEF/Dodge and STA?”
Never. But what about a Tier token? That’s a plate chest (or whatever) with whatever stats you want on it. Why should I (as Main Tank) have it over a healer, or a DPS? Remember I’ve already rejected the theory that having a best-geared MT makes for faster progression. Such is my opinion - yours is of course different.
As I said before, as well, a tank priority makes a mockery of a loot distribution such as EPGP.
By Namthe on Nov 11, 2008
I should add that in our loot system, main spec items always take priority over offspec. So a non-tank can bid on a tanking item, but can never win against a tank.
This isn’t “tank priority”. It’s “main spec priority”. Similar but subtly (and importantly) different.
By Cynra on Nov 12, 2008
I usually favor loot rules that fairly distribute loot with an emphasis on main over offset and takes into consideration some form of attendance and/or contribution. This typically means that rather than gearing out a single player (whether it be a single tank, single core healer, or even one DPSer), multiple people of a single role get loot.
While I understand the concern of gearing a tank over all other specs, I don’t like it and never have. Perhaps my concern is dependent on the fact that I’ve never been that tank (well, to be honest, a tank), I also feel that it’s important that the loot be dispersed equally.
One concern is that if loot isn’t shared, then people will start feeling upset. Their contributions are equally important and one tangible way of sharing that feeling is by giving out loot.
The other concern is that gearing up a single tank is another example of putting all of your eggs in one basket. If, for whatever reason, that tank disappears (and we’ve heard of stories about tanks that get geared out and leave for a higher progressing guild, have problems that limit their playing, or even just disappear without a trace) the entire raid is suddenly back at square one, but worse: the DPSers have most likely exceeded the loot of the offtank now stepping up to tank and the tank faces the additional hurdle of trying to tank against players who may be putting out more DPS than the tank can handle or can’t even survive the damage being throw at him by the current level of boss.
By Tankette on Nov 13, 2008
Our guild doesn’t give anyone priority. In the past I often let healers get gear instead of me if it wasnt going to be a really good upgrade for me.
Side note - Our guild is going back to using the EPGP system for WoTLK. This will only be for 25 man runs. 10 man runs are just roll need if you need it for main spec and greed for offspec. On the EPGP, this time we will use decay and also everyone will start out with 1000 or so GP. This stops new people from grabbing the first good item as soon as they have enough EP to be elligible. That was always a frustration before.
By Namthe on Nov 14, 2008
” On the EPGP, this time we will use decay and also everyone will start out with 1000 or so GP”
Better to implement a threshold for EP below which new people can’t roll on contested loot - I suspect 1000GP may be too high.
We use a limit of 200 - though the exact number will vary based on the amount awarded for different things. It’s about the number for downing three new bosses for the first time, or twenty farm bosses.
By Tankette on Nov 14, 2008
We will also have a threshhold EP and we had that before. Without also starting with GP the new people get the next item that drops after they hit the EP threshhold since the denominator would be zero. That was a major beef we had with the system before. We want new people to the guild to raid for 3-4 weeks before getting loot. Without a starting GP they would usually get loot in the second week of raids and often jump to a higher progression guild soon after.
By Namthe on Nov 15, 2008
Hmmmm.
Strikes me that you could achieve the same end by simply doubling the EP threshold.
This also has the benefit that you actually have to raid regularly to get gear - your 1000GP is going to decay along with everything else, to the point where a first-time raider will still have top PR if they join then don’t raid for months.
By Tankette on Nov 20, 2008
Those are some good points you have. I’ll talk them over with our guild officers.